Curse

mr_stealth · Aug 15, 2008, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

Second, if they nerf tank'n'spank, there WILL be a new meta out, and it's going to be the same thing all over again - professions will be undesired, some will be desired even more and PUGs WILL want you to run those.

This is exactly what would happen. PuGS will always go for what is easy to setup and has a reasonable success rate. Ursanway dominated PuGs most of this year for those reasons, and because it was faster/overpowered/easy. Until most players start thinking for themselves and using builds that contribute the group instead of just filling the screen with yellow numbers(not likely), the quickest to setup wiki build will be the meta for pve. For now, its back to the trinity because wars, eles, and monks are commonly played professions, making it rather easy to form a group.

As for the tank'n'spank tactic itself, its fairly simple but also very fragile. That's what keep it from being too effective/fast, and why it probably won't be nerfed out of existence. A bad bodyblock from the tank or an over-eager ele running in right behind the tank = aggro break = wipe. Its those near-wipe situtations at every fight that keep PuGs from getting thing done quickly, not because eles suck at doing dmg (ok, chain casting MS does). The funny thing is that the same group (1 war, 5 ele, 2 monk) could get the job done faster/more reliably by just using the attribute lines they all claim suck (earth, water, prot, non-obsi war).

Damian979 · Aug 15, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

My mouse could clear FoW by itself...

If people really can't clear without the use of gimmick builds and consumables, they're very very very bad. Even in HM both areas are fairly easy. As long as people take the right quest, kite without screwing the group and where to position themselves, it's a piece of piss.

This wins as "most stereo-typical example of the OP's topic" gj, here's your cookie.

I am in a good guild with good people but they don't do elite areas much. They are for the most part title grinders which makes no difference to me, but as for my self, grinding makes me want to strangle kittens. And so,I hate to admit it but I like to pug.

Yes it is nice doing things with a familiar team. Knowing that the chances of failing are slim to none is a nice feeling, but especially on my monk, I enjoy the challenge of trying things with complete strangers and not knowing what the team is ( or isn't ) going to do. It keeps the senses sharp.

Then again, I look at GW as a game and there for I don't get all bent and start throwing a tantrum saying "you nubz wastes my timez!" when things don't go perfectly.

The problem with the ursan-using GW community "post nerf", is that a large majority still have refused to accept that ursan is no longer viable to be a build by itself, and haven't learned how to function without their 123. Most still haven't figured out the difference between +100 armor and 100 armor.

And so you have a large group of people that are already pissed that their precious skill got neutered and are twice as quick to rage to hell and back when the game that was "so easy" isn't so easy anymore.

Kusandaa · Aug 15, 2008, 02:28 PM // 14:28

EDIT: Holy crap, didn't realize I had written THAT long of a post. Summary: the average player has no common sense and is extremely spoiled; they take normal things like damage extremely personally, and take failure like the ultimate insult to their egos. When they're not insulting the other for not doing their job... that is.

Yes, the average player annoys me a lot.

EDIT2: ... Lemme rewrite this. Shouldn't be that long in a few minutes. >_>.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian979

Then again, I look at GW as a game and there for I don't get all bent and start throwing a tantrum saying "you nubz wastes my timez!" when things don't go perfectly.

I think it depends of the amount of time taken to form a group, coupled with the average player mindset.

FoW example:
15 minutes to find a group; people go AFK, bars don't suit the leader
Another 5-10 minutes to find the missing people, during which more leave.
The group fails 5 minutes inside.

Seriously it's disappointing. It's even worse when it's an area where the waiting time to get a group is even longer; we're talking hours of preparations for Urgoz or The Deep simply because there's no one in there. You spend 2 hours+ setting up and you fail within 10 minutes. How disappointing is that, really?

So yeah, I can understand your point for some stuff. It's normal that there's a death and that someone goes AFK. The average player, however, will take it like you stabbed their mother 30 times with a knife. However, when you spend 2 hours finding a team and you fail 10 minutes in... frustration will take over.

flyinhigh · Aug 15, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

meh, the game is going down hill, sell your account and get what you can for it and move on to something else.

enter_the_zone · Aug 15, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakti

I'm sorry, but what game were you playing? People have ALWAYS behaved like asshats in pugs.

I remember my very 1st FOW run with a pug on my brand new lvl 20 (!) necro. I got bitched out because I had well of power, not BiP. I had told the team my bar and they approved but apparently the monk hadn't paid attention. She was a raging bitch about it. Result? I learned a )have a clue before you pug or don't pug and b)how to build the "right" bar.

Does it suck ppl aren't more helpful/understanding? Yes. Is it good for those who never ran anything but the easy 123 button that was Ursan to learn to actually play? HELL YES.

They are ELITE areas. They aren't supposed to be easy. They are supposed to be advanced play areas that require a modicum of skill. Yes it would be nice if players would be helpful rather than assish which is why I try to offer constructive advice to those that don't get it. Either way though, taking the Easy Button away was very very good. Learn to swim or get outta the water

Not quite taken away, more replaced for an older variant..

I am using Save Yourselves!
I am using There is Nothing to Fear!

oh look, that's much easier now

Martin Firestorm · Aug 15, 2008, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by KZaske

To me, if the guild leader has not taken the time to build a wiki page, then the guild is not worth giving a second look.

Seriously? Of all things I'd look for in a GL, this would be last on my list.

Damian979 · Aug 15, 2008, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

So yeah, I can understand your point for some stuff. It's normal that there's a death and that someone goes AFK. The average player, however, will take it like you stabbed their mother 30 times with a knife. However, when you spend 2 hours finding a team and you fail 10 minutes in... frustration will take over.

I agree totally about the frustration. I have seen some epic pug failures that were just unnecessary. Builds that just make you say WTF like the derv that gets smacked down in two hits because he is running all sup runes, the [flare][fire storm] monk, or my favorite, the W/Mo that says "I can heal u guys"

.

Typically I try to make my own team for elite areas. It makes it easier to weed out the ones named "Ipwnzurface" or "Ivan Abutsecs" who most likely aren't going to be the most reliable. Then I can read people pretty well by asking a few questions about the mission, and decide whether some build critique is in order.

Even then, when everyone is running nice builds and it still fails for what ever reason and I start getting frustrated, it just wasn't meant to be that day. I go to the trusty bottom left hand corner and log out for a while or go do something else.

Shursh · Aug 15, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian979

The problem with the ursan-using GW community "post nerf", is that a large majority still have refused to accept that ursan is no longer viable to be a build by itself, and haven't learned how to function without their 123. Most still haven't figured out the difference between +100 armor and 100 armor.

agreed. i lvled an imbagon for this very reason, expecting them to be even more valuable in a party than they already are. i then stood in TOA for 30 minutes "Imbagon LFG" before getting a single reply, which was "what's an imbagon?"

i also agree with the frustrations felt by most people when you spend nearly an hour trying to form a well-organized, albeit tank n' spank team (with the obvious afk-ers, DC-ers, "this is taking too long so i'm leaving"-ers, etc.), enter UW/FOW, and promptly wipe after the first or second group.

i can understand the occasional DC, but if you aren't in it for the long haul, get your ass out of TOA and stop rage quitting.

Snow Bunny · Aug 15, 2008, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnel Ithtirsol

Dervs for example still got shafted.
(In PvE)

You do the highest physical damage and it's AoE. How did Dervs get shafted...?

Quote:

Most dervish elites are still useless. There is just so much that can be done to make them more viable for PuGs to consider. I'm not holding my breath though...

Avatar of Melandru and Dwayna are so strong.

Quote:

And Imbagons are extremely valuable to physical teams, no doubt. The problem is that you dont see a lot of those around.

Most pugs believe that physicals don't do much damage...

mr_stealth · Aug 15, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Most pugs believe that physicals don't do much damage...

You're absolutely right about that. And the funniest part is that its almost unbelievable when you consider the amount of "hulk aggro and smash all" attitude warriors/dervishes running around. Or the hordes of assassins...sure they were made for permasin, but these people had to play the character at least little and see the potential. I don't think any of my characters can put down an enemy faster than my assassin...well, maybe my mesmer

when given the right foe.

It kinda goes back to what I said earlier in the thread about everyone (speaking of general pugs) being all about seeing yellow numbers all over their screen. Physicals need support of things like orders/splinter weapon to boost damage, monks keeping them cleared of blind/weakness(I rarely see a monk able to remove them), and the ability to defeat enemy defenses(interrupt wards, remove aegis, prevent shouts, etc). The problem is that these don't do direct damage and therefore suck in the eyes of pugs. Remember, if you can't see your skill doing 250 dmg or healing for 2000 hp, you're wasting a slot.

glacialphoenix · Aug 15, 2008, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

And this is why I despair at the amount of abuse sent in their direction. That's the last thing they need.

Ping them a workable build or tell them the fundamental skills to build around or even point them to wiki. They will still have to complete or learn how to use the build so it's not like they're going to steal your slot in the PuG for a hour or so at least.

That person you help then goes and passes on info to his previous Ursan-playing friends/guild saying "Hey, this works, let's go!" and the next batch of 'elite area' players is born. It's really not so different to how most of the 'experienced' players got there.

Ursan caused a spike in respect levels amongst players, we need to put that behind us and move on.

Or don't we want them to learn?

It's one thing to be inexperienced. It's another to be inexperienced and unwilling to learn. Maybe it's just me, but I keep seeing the latter a lot more nowadays. There's a lot of abuse, and it's going both ways, not just one way. You can't help the person who is unwilling to learn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian979

The problem with the ursan-using GW community "post nerf", is that a large majority still have refused to accept that ursan is no longer viable to be a build by itself, and haven't learned how to function without their 123. Most still haven't figured out the difference between +100 armor and 100 armor.

I agree. I keep getting the impression that people are sort-of-lost after Ursan got nerfed.

IlikeGW · Aug 15, 2008, 05:57 PM // 17:57

These problems are as old as the game.

It goes basically like this:

Endgame areas are overpowered to be a "challenge."

A group that PUGs with random builds will get defeated in these areas instantly.

The people who stick around and still want to PUG compromise. They want to play the area, so they accept that the only way will be to use an overpowered group build that's reliable.

This is how it always has been. You can blame bad design of endgame areas (are they really a "challenge" or just a temporary puzzle for some people to solve and then ever after a grinding joke) or you can blame players having terrible communication skills and no willingness to work with each other to make new builds. Either way, these areas will not change.

isamu kurosawa · Aug 15, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

Maybe a little harsh to assume that all of them don't want to learn, especially those I see begging for the builds in DoA and ToA.

I ran a guild helping players with the game for over a year. i made the mistake of actively helping pugs etc at the start and got nothing but abuse.

People who are willing to accept help and advice found my guild themselves. People who are willing will help themselves find the information or help they need.

You cannot help those who are not willing no matter what you try. They will even push absurd reasons, saying your screenshot evidence are photoshopped or calling you a hacker. Get them to try the build and it obviously wont be effective because they are either outright crap at the game or purposly play worse to prove you wrong.

Snow Bunny · Aug 15, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

i made the mistake of actively helping pugs etc at the start and got nothing but abuse.

I make this mistake all the time.

I pugged with a very professional Endure Pain+Heal Party+Orison warrior last night (HE HAD THE DROKS PLATEMAIL dyed 3 different colors!!!!

, who very proudly informed me that apparently he is the warrior for a top 10 guild.

When I pinged my build he told me that using Splinter Weapon with Barrage was stupid.

Clarissa F · Aug 15, 2008, 07:43 PM // 19:43

To all those who say "some of us are in small/no guilds, etc"

I hear there are a few games out, like WoW, where, if you skip a few lattes or beer runs, you can afford the subscription; because this game is not for you.

It is called GUILD WARS! You teats, learn that the whole point of the game was to form these things called GUILDS of people with similar interests, to play together. There is also a Friends' list. Quit being anti-social in-game and develop some friends. Hell, one friend and their heroes will make a nice sweep and clear of any area.

There are plenty of large guilds, even advertised here, which you can apply to and join. Most will take you, if you aren't a total a$$ hat.

To those who complain that "elite" areas should be available to everyone, I would love, LOVE to see what you do in your life that allows such mediocrity to be satisfying to you. Then again, I guess some people need to push the papers, while others are leading the company.

Taurucis · Aug 15, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Most pugs believe that physicals don't do much damage...

Yeah, I get that crap from people a lot (my main character is a warrior)

When I join a Pug for FoW, people always tell me "Go obsidian flesh tank" or "hey, can u tank?" or "set up as tank plz" when I could be much more effective as something else. If you kill the little red dots before they can deal enough damage to you, you won't need a tank to take the damage.

It's rather ironic that they don't take tips from the Shadow Warriors, they run horrible builds and yet I've seen them munch through quite a few teams that carry Obsidian Flesh tanks.

The real irony, however, is that these PuGs always ask for "Obsidian Flesh tank, BiP, H-Boon, Bonder, and more nukers for FoW!" and somehow, they have a higher tendency to wipe. My guild will take practically anything into FoW... assassins, ritualists, paragons, dervishes, smite monks, water eles, earth eles, mesmers... I've even brought my pet warrior into FoW with them. I can't recall the last time a full alliance group wiped in NM FoW. Bring Pugs into the equation and things go downhill, though...

glacialphoenix · Aug 15, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

The real irony, however, is that these PuGs always ask for "Obsidian Flesh tank, BiP, H-Boon, Bonder, and more nukers for FoW!" and somehow, they have a higher tendency to wipe.

Because knowing the build doesn't mean that they have the requisite skill to play it - or even that they know how to play it. Sure, you can bet there's a few people there who really know their job, but they can only do so much. If the healers simply can't keep the party alive, the nukers can't do all that much damage. If the nukers can't kill fast enough or people just overaggro, the healers get a whole chunk of problems on their side. The sac necro can only afford to sacrifice so much health each time, too, and so on and so forth.

However, a guild with players who are familiar and skilled with the class that they bring in - AND, on top of that, probably enjoy it - is going to have a generally better playerbase to take on FoW. You trust a guildie/alliancemate more than you trust a PUGger. You'd also be likely to play better if you were using a character you like to use and enjoy playing.

Jenn · Aug 15, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shursh

agreed. i lvled an imbagon for this very reason, expecting them to be even more valuable in a party than they already are.

Imbagon... ursan (prior nerf)... I'm not sure which is actually more imbalanced.

Imbagons - 1 person in the party, can keep a party of 60 AL people alive, extremely well. They can provide other buffs and also do spear-chuckin' damage.

Ursan - needs 5-6 of them for it to be effective, and if agro leaks on monks, they have very little protection and can go squish.

What I don't get is how ursan haters don't feel like hypocrites when they worship the ground an imbagon walks on. Maybe they don't feel that way because it's not abused, and the general idea is that paragons suck. But seriously, if the key to your non-ursan build is an imbagon, you're not fooling anyone.

I hope they nerf the imbagon to shit. I've seen them more responsible for keeping a team alive than some casters running around with +20 more armor swinging a sword.

itsvictor · Aug 15, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

People, in general, are pretty stupid and this is exemplified in the Guild Wars pick-up group. There are so many people that I want to strangle cause of the way they play/think/function. Tank n' Spank works for players that understand game mechanics, this is not true for the PUG(since it's quite clear they keep trying the same build that "works", still failing repeatedly(definition of stupid) and not making any changes). Guild/Alliance is the answer since you can more often work with them more so than some random dude that can just leave(not to say the guildi/alliance person can't but is less likely inclined to do so) and find another group.

P.S. Imbagons are the answer to all this failure though they don't get much worship since again people don't know how to add up how much the Imbagon does.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 15, 2008, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Myself, I think I mainly bought Guild Wars as a singleplayer RPG that I could play with people as an optional feature, and indeed the game does seem to be designed that way. The people I know ingame I don't really play with them much anymore, just chat with them while playing. (Or in between posts.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

Quit being anti-social in-game and develop some friends.

You need to read the back of the Prophecies box. I'll let you go ahead and do that and see if you can figure it out.